Secrets to Managing Up That Nobody is Telling You

Andrea Watkins (00:04):
Well, hi there. I am Andrea Watkins. And if you're listening to this, while juggling three patient calls, checking in a couple patients, taking a payment, selling skincare, and trying to catch your doctor in between procedures, you might be working in an aesthetic practice.

Blake Lucas (00:18):
And I'm Blake Lucas, and this is Practice Land. This is not your doctor's podcast.

Andrea Watkins (00:24):
So today we're talking about managing and being managed and how hard that really is. I'd like to introduce our guest today, Kelcy Heringer. I've been told that Kelcy speaks fluent boss, so she's going to be a great guest for us to pick her brain. Kelcy, hello.

Kelcy Heringer (00:40):
Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Andrea Watkins (00:43):
So could you start off just by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you landed here at Practice Land?

Kelcy Heringer (00:49):
I'll first start off with I love the crux of Practice Land, so it's so cool that there is finally something for the actual people that are making things happen in the practice with real dirt and no BS. So I'm loving what this is, but yes, a little bit about me. I've had the privilege and headache of managing hundreds over the years. I've worked for amazing and terrible leaders, CEOs, founders in my 20 years of working everything from small startup to stuffy big corporate and mostly on the brand side in the aesthetic space. So at places like RealSelf, AbbVie, Novartis and Valiant. And now I live and breathe this topic today, which is I help folks who are mid-career navigate really the corporate unspoken to help them climb, get promoted, and really just get to a more fulfilling day where they feel valued and are maxing their time and their income. So I hate to say coach because that's pretty vague and overused and I like to think of myself really more as a career accelerator to help fast track folks.

Andrea Watkins (02:06):
Can you just start off by telling us who is the very best manager that you've ever had, that person that you think of, man, they made an impact in my life and I can take a lot of tidbits from them to make impacts and create a positive future for those that I'm helping as well.

Kelcy Heringer (02:23):
I would say the best manager call her AC, she was my previous COO. And why I would say she is the best manager that I've ever had is because she found a balance in committing to the business but also in advocating for me, really pushing me big time and teaching me the ropes where I had blind spots. And so I think she did not only what table stakes of a manager should do, which is guide direct into support and unblock, but she really took the time to care about me and my son and max the energy that I was spending in places and also ensuring that I was getting the right value exchange from the company. She really, really, really focused on making sure that I understood my blind spots with very, very direct feedback that was sometimes super hard to hear. But she also, I'd say the one thing that my biggest learning from her is managing people is a journey and a process. You can never be one and done when you're managing people and supporting people. It always needs to be thought of as change management and change takes time. So I still keep in touch with her today, but now she's a dear friend who I've told her you're my mentor for life.

Blake Lucas (03:48):
You said something there I thought was really interesting, just managing the needs of the business and then also mentoring you personally, right? How did she manage that or how was she successful in that?

Kelcy Heringer (04:01):
I would say that she always did enough to stay committed to the business but put people first. And I think that that is really rare in managers. I think oftentimes we think so much that our job is to do what we're told or be super loyal to the business. And now that I am not 25 anymore, when I look back at my company experiences and I would say advice to people is like you're going to remember the people that you made an impact on and the people that you worked with, not like, hey, remember that one time we went from 1% to 2% market share? And so I think that she really found balance in doing both really, really well, but always erred on the side of doing what's right by people.

Blake Lucas (04:53):
That's amazing.

Andrea Watkins (04:54):
And so when you were working with her, what were some of the tidbits that you picked up along the way? It sounds like she's incredible and I love this AC and the fact that you had this experience and were able to learn and grow and do it through some times hard feedback.

Kelcy Heringer (05:10):
I would say two things that she helped me walk away with for being a great people manager is number one, really clear strategic vision and making sure that folks always understood the why. Because you can say, Hey, we need to hit $50 million, but if you don't have the story behind why we need to hit $50 million and what that means to patients, to the practice, or to the corporate team or to the people that are impacted by the product and services that you're delivering, it falls on really transactional ears and it's missing the heart. And then to take it a step further, always making sure that people really understood their exact path to how they laddered up to that strategic vision. So one thing that I really have honed in on over the last five years is making sure people have really clear lanes and they know exactly how the math of that outcome ties back to the top company vision.

(06:16):
So that would be number one, people should be very clear on what they're being asked to do and why. And then the second thing is what you said, Andrea, feedback. Like how I've really learned this playbook of being super direct and getting myself so uncomfortable and believing that feedback is the biggest gift and I wasn't always good at this. There's people on this line that could attest to I erred on the side of being cooler or not wanting to rock the boat. But I really think that if I'm sitting there thinking of a practice manager that really the best thing that they could do for their future success is understand, here's how I'm perceived by leadership and being very clear and we can talk about some specifics there if we want to, but also making sure that the people that are on their direct team know exactly where they stand and the exact one to two things that you'd like to see them work on so that people have the real truth.

Andrea Watkins (07:17):
So going back to what you were saying about the feedback and the importance of each leader having clear vision and goals for each member on their team, tell me a little bit about what you would recommend. I'm the person that sits at the front desk, I answer the phone, I check patients in and out, I take payments, that's my job, but I don't really understand what is my potential, what is my trajectory? How does what I do make an impact positively or negatively? I'm just kind of thrown up there and not maybe given a lot of resources or training. What do you recommend from all of your experience and from what you do now to be able to help that person in that role advocate for themselves?

Kelcy Heringer (08:02):
I would say number one is just expect that you need to drive your career. That is number one. And the most tactical way of how to go about that is to make sure every six to eight weeks you have a meeting on the calendar with your boss, that is no matter what, it doesn't get canceled, it doesn't get moved. It is not about the fires that are going on, because that's typically how we spend time with our manager, is like, what do we have to get done this week or what happened and it broke that we need to fix? And it is dedicated time on the calendar to talk about your career. And I think there's three really helpful questions, which is, scale of one to 10, how do you think I am performing? What are one to two things as I look out over the next six to eight weeks that you want me to focus on and work on to get me to the next milestone of where I want to go?

(08:57):
And third question is retro. Let's say you've already had a few of these and you are good and sticking to your discipline of every six to eight weeks, calibrating with them on a scale of one to 10, how did I do against the one to two things that you asked me to do? So there's very clear math, I love the barometers. So that you know, scale of one to 10 versus somebody saying, good, you're doing good, that's not really that helpful. And then making sure that you're very clear on the one to two things that you need to do to get to where you want to go. I

Blake Lucas (09:31):
I love that as a manager, just there are so much going on in my world where it's good to remember that your managers are also employees and people too because they're going to be swamped with so many things going on. It can be really difficult, especially in a larger organization to remember all the little things or the intricacies about the individual and what they worked on five weeks ago. So to have that moment where you can pull them aside and remind them and it makes them a better manager, this is now looking at managing up and helping your managers become better managers, reminding them this is really impactful, this I got a lot of value out of this as a manager having this conversation. I think that's incredible. And I think the other thing too, in those moments when you're asking especially on that one to 10 scale, be specific or be deliberate and be like, what makes me a six? Why did you give me a six? What was it that got me there? And then go, okay, what could get me to an eight, nine or 10?

Andrea Watkins (10:28):
And having objective data I think helps answer some of those questions that you're asking also, Blake, is I would like us to, if we're getting a hundred phone calls a week, I would like 37 of those converted into patient appointments. And to have that objective data to be able to track what is your progress, instead of again, making it subjective where like meh, I'm having a good day, so you're nine and then the next meeting it's like, meh, having a bad day, you're a six, which nobody likes to have. I would add one additional thing onto that as well, which is come to me and say, Hey listen, these are the two things that I really think would be great for us to work on in the next month or two months, six to eight weeks, whatever, instead of just always looking for your leader to tell you what to do.

Blake Lucas (11:14):
Andrea, I had a conversation with an employee just the other day where they came in and I was kind of taken aback. They sat down with me and they're like, it's the new year, we're just starting out. So obviously there's a lot of conversations happening around what are we trying to accomplish this year? What are our goals? And so he asked me specifically, what were the goals that were set on you? What did your boss tell you you need to accomplish? And then specifically, what can I do to then help you accomplish that goal? And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Obviously I want to be successful. I have my own personal career goals. You have to remember your managers have those things too.

(11:49):
And if you come proactive and ask, how can I help you accomplish that goal that has been placed on you and you're stressed out about, can I take that off your plate? How amazing is that to see that in an employee? And immediately now I have a totally different perspective of this person and now I actively am trying to figure out, okay, what can I give them that I know they're going to do great at? Or what's going to challenge them to get to that next level and show like, okay, they did a great job, they're up for that next promotion whenever that comes around.

Andrea Watkins (12:17):
Kelcy, what are you think can go wrong sometimes when someone can do a job really, really well, but maybe they don't quite know how to be a leader?

Kelcy Heringer (12:26):
Number one is, too controlling one way or the other to controlling meaning micromanaging, being one extreme and then being the fixer, on the other side and micromanaging about every single little detail of somebody's work when it really should be about a great manager sets direction and empowers people to then go solve the problem, while providing guardrails and support where needed. And then on the opposite end, being the fixer that's always so tempted to jump in and save and save them from every problem. And so it's not about swooping into fix everything. Sometimes it's letting them be in it and learn. So I think that's number one. And then number two, avoiding conflict. Your job as a manager, and I wish somebody would've said this to me, is to problem solve all day long. And so you need to take problems head on versus avoid them. That is one, and then the third, going back to AC that I used to think, and I often see this with first time managers, that they think the solve is one and done. I can just say it and then it's going to be fixed. Versus think of this as, anytime we have change management, it's probably going to take a few months to drive the change. And so this is going to need to be an ongoing discussion and you need to come up with the right process to manage to the change.

Andrea Watkins (13:54):
So a lot of times kind of going back to what you were saying, a lot of people, they think the manager is that person who they're just going to give you work to do. You're a manager now, so you just sit and you point and there's a million memes about that, which I think we'll get into some memes later, but why do you think it could be a mistake for people to just assume that management or leaders are just finger pointers and do this and do that? What detriment will that have on maybe someone that's not a manager or leader in the long run?

Kelcy Heringer (14:26):
Yeah, I think it's not a very fulfilling day to be an order taker, right? And I also think that the best outcomes, and I'm sure you two see this all the time in your worlds, the best outcomes come from diversity of thought. So I go back to your job as a manager is to give them, here's the end result I'm looking for or the outcome that I'm looking for, but letting them figure out how are we going to get there? That's where the coolness and strategic and awesomeness come is from you are here in this role because you have a superpower that your boss doesn't have and they're trusting that you should exercise that skill to help us go achieve that outcome.

Andrea Watkins (15:11):
What would you recommend as a leader you do to cultivate an environment where your team does feel empowered in that way?

Kelcy Heringer (15:19):
I think if you can create an environment where you are encouraging people to be brave, and I hate the word normal, but normalize experimentation and introduce that, hey, we're going to try some things, eight out of 10 might fail, but that's okay. And giving people saying those things to help give people comfort and confidence that you want them to take some risks, but not everything's going to be perfect.

Blake Lucas (15:45):
I struggle with this, just to be a little vulnerable for a moment. There are moments where I have that kind of imposter syndrome, you're talking about, I've been placed in this position because I have a superpower and I doubt that sometimes, right? You get into that moment, like how did I get here? I mean, I was just the front desk person. I had a very similar upbringing, Kelcy, I think that you had where you started from the entry level and worked your way up. And I went through the trenches and was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time, I feel like sometimes. So I wonder how do you deal with those moments of self-doubt?

Kelcy Heringer (16:20):
I have imposter syndrome every day right now as I've gone out to start my own business. I'm like, did I make the wrong decision? Should I be doing this? I'm not really that qualified. And the truth is we absolutely are. So sometimes to ground myself, I have to sitting and writing down, here are my superpowers and let me remind myself, here is exactly why they need me here and here's what I'm really great at. And it's also a good check of am I in the right role, when you sit down and ask those things and making sure that your superpowers are aligning to the problems that are needing to be solved. But that is always what I find myself doing. And to go back to getting feedback from other people around how I am doing to kind of check myself of good or bad, validating a thought or getting myself back to a place of more confidence.

(17:15):
One other thought is taking it back to your manager and being vulnerable. I think that that's an okay moment too, to be asking for some guidance or help if you are feeling over your skis. And that also builds trust when people come to me and say, Hey, I'd really love to know how you'd approach this because I'm not feeling really confident in my approach and I could use some pointers. That creates such a bond between the two of you and that person gets to, especially if they were homegrown and were in your role before, people love being the expert and being the manager that gets to help their employee. So I think it's also just okay to admit it sometimes that we're having those feelings.

Andrea Watkins (17:55):
And I think it's also worth noting that you guys have talked a lot about superpowers. I talk about that all the time and it's okay. And everyone should, if we're confident in ourselves as humans, it's okay that every superpower is not mine.

Blake Lucas (18:11):
And I think that the important thing too is there is being humble enough to hire people that are possibly better than you at something, right? You want to surround yourself with the best people. Why hire someone that isn't the greatest? Right?

Kelcy Heringer (18:24):
I remember the moment when somebody said to me, always hire people smarter than you. And it is such a good rule to live by. So I relate to that a lot, Blake,

Andrea Watkins (18:35):
Relating to that, that's what the folks that we report to, hopefully what's in their brain too. When they hired me or Blake or Kelcy, your clients that are hiring you, she has a superpower. She's smart, she brings all this to the table. So then we find ourselves in this situation where we have the people above us that are looking for our superpowers and to be smarter. And then we have the people that we lead and manage. And so we're like this middle layer and we need to manage up and we need to manage the boss and others. And sometimes this can kind of be the hardest spot, as far as I'm concerned, to be in a business. So from your perspective and what you've seen experience, Kelcy, what's it look like in an aesthetic practice when you're managing up and you're that middle layer of leader in the practice?

Kelcy Heringer (19:27):
I think first it's giving yourself some grace that you are in a tough spot. And when I think about it in terms of a practice, I think you also have to look at who you're dealing with when you are managing up and you're likely dealing in these situations with a founder or a business owner that this brand is their baby, and there's going to be some delusion around that. There's going to be some ego around that. And so I'd say setting expectations with yourself that that exists is going to be very, very critical and accepting this is kind of what you signed up for. And there's going to be some hard times because they're going to have a rough time, just as any founder does, seeing their own blind spots. So it is when you have to put on your brave vest and be like, one of my top jobs, actually is to surface their blind spots and to challenge them, but to also do it respectfully. And I think it's one of the most, as I look back, empowering moments in my career when I started being like, it is my job to give the CEO, the CTO, the founder, the front desk person, the admin, everybody is game for me to coach, guide and direct. And so I think as you change your view, as you continue to climb, you have to quit looking at it as it's just your team, that is your team and it's really your job is the entire organization.

Blake Lucas (21:03):
What about these situations too, like I've worked with so many different medical practices now that I see you where there's a lot of family involved in the ownership or in the management. So the husband or wife or the spouse is in very much entrenched in the leadership of the business. How do you manage that?

Kelcy Heringer (21:23):
The biggest piece of advice I would give in those moments is, if you're new to starting and that is the case, acknowledging it. And again, setting expectations with yourself. Also being really clear that you need to give some uncomfortable feedback and just leading with that. If it is something that is not going right with the spouse of the practice or it goes into also if you have a friend at the practice and you have changed roles, I think being very honest about, Hey, it is my job and it is the best interest of the company for me to give this feedback. I know it's going to be uncomfortable, but are you okay? And do I have permission to share my observations of what I have been seeing? So again, it goes back to bravery and confidence to be really forthcoming with what you're seeing versus dancing around it. Because if you dance around it and you're in that middle layer of management, you also are breaking trust because everybody else is seeing what that spouse is doing and you're not acknowledging it, and they're all looking to you to kind of unblock them there and to surface it and to give that feedback. So I think you have to realize all eyes are on you and this isn't fun, but it's my job.

Blake Lucas (22:42):
Right? Oh man. Yeah, the job part of the job starts to come through.

Andrea Watkins (22:47):
Work is a four letter word sometimes for a reason.

Kelcy Heringer (22:50):
I'm so curious. How would you two handle that?

Andrea Watkins (22:52):
Yeah, I have that experience with a few clients, kind of had it in the practice a little bit. And I think what you said is always going to be my foundation for everything that I do is just being honest and I'm going to always have the best intention and not be looking at it through some rose colored glasses. But I really like what you said about you also have to set a good example for the rest of the team because if you don't set a culture where no matter who you are or what your last name is, you're creating an environment where everyone has the same opportunity and everyone also has the same consequences and expectations, then you're not going to get the best and highest use out of anyone's time.

Blake Lucas (23:38):
I've had moments where I was lucky enough to get promoted up and the people that I worked alongside with now are my direct reports, and those are people that you're in the trenches with and you bond, and maybe it's trauma bonding a little bit sometimes, but now you have this very, very close relationship of really close friendship where now they're your direct report. And so that creates a very unique scenario where, okay, how do I handle this properly now because I really need to, I need to stop having certain types of conversations with this person because now I'm in an area of leadership, so I can't talk about the company in certain ways or maybe, everyone does this where we in any job, no matter how good or bad it is, you're going to have those moments where you start to maybe not talk about the business in the best of light, you start to complain about the job portion of the job. And Kelcy, tell me about times where you've had that happen or how do you handle those types of situations?

Kelcy Heringer (24:37):
Yes, people love to commiserate and gossip. It's like our human nature. So how I always check myself is I live by one rule. And it was amazing when I started living by this rule how much easier it was to get out of those uncomfortable spots of being part of that chatter and part of the gossip. And I think it's even harder when you are working in an office with multiple people versus people who are remote. It's less likely to happen. And so I would say the one thing that I learned is if the person has not heard that feedback first, I'm not talking about it. And so also saying that to people who are trying to gossip with you, it'll also check them real fast. It will make people be like, oh, she's not cool with this. I'm not going to be doing that. And it earns you instant respect because, what you're really saying is like, Hey, it's not that maybe I don't disagree with that or agree with that, it's just that person deserves to know. And so I definitely got invited to maybe a few less happy hours or a few less coffee chats because of that, but I was okay with that and still am okay with it because that's not fair to that person. It's also not a great use of my energy in a day. So that's really my one rule around that and how I kind of would coach and guide people to get themselves out of it.

Blake Lucas (26:05):
Kelcy, you had said something earlier that I loved and it was, almost kind of around the diversity of thought and having these different perspectives coming in and how that can make your organization so much better, your team so much better, is this ability to really truly bring in new insights and different ways of thinking or different ways of problem solving, all of a sudden can make everyone's life better or uplift the entire organization, which hopefully impacts your comp plan later on. If the company's successful, that has a direct impact on how much money you could make. So yeah, I think losing that trust is, and I think that would be the achilles heel for any practice,

Kelcy Heringer (26:45):
You nailed it. The question I would ask myself of, am I participating in this gossip? Am I not participating? And really you have to ask yourself, who do I want to be known for? What is my brand? Do I want to be respected and trusted or do I want to be cool? Usually not both. And I would think that you would want to be, if you want to continue to climb in your career, you would focus on earning respect, which is built through many, many micro moments of you having confidence and you building trust with people.

Andrea Watkins (27:20):
Onto the earning part, earning respect. We earn lots of different things throughout our life. What do you recommend for people who want to earn more and build and grow in their career and be able to buy themselves nicer things and help support their families in more meaningful ways and things like that as they're growing in their career and their skillset, what's your recommendation for people when they're thinking, I want to go ask for a raise?

Kelcy Heringer (27:49):
It is wild that in today's environment you must must must drive your own career. So I think I would still go back to if I were to break it down in three ways of how you could drive your career, number one would be going back to those every six to eight week dev chats where you are seeking feedback. Those should truly be every eight weeks where you are calibrating with your boss on being very clear, here's where I want to get in my career and making sure that's realistic with them and then running through those three questions, how am I performing? What are the one to two things that I need to work on? And let's retro from the last six to eight weeks to make sure you're progressing towards those things that need to be worked on. And number two, I would make sure that I'm also thinking about in today's world, what is the outsized impact that I am going to deliver?

(28:42):
And this is one of my favorite topics like outsized impact. What does that mean? To me it means it is your golden ticket for how you are going to ensure that you're going to get promoted, and it is basically going above and beyond. So today, doing your job is probably not enough to get promoted. So when I think of somebody who is a patient care coordinator or somebody who's in more of a sales role at a practice, an example might be, Hey, I was asked to bring in a hundred, I'm in charge of a hundred leads. I'll keep it simple. Outsized impact would be, okay, I'm actually going to aim for 150 so that when I have my dev chat in six to eight weeks and I'm sharing out my performance, I'm actually talking about how I exceeded goals. Or I'm going to make sure that on top of the a hundred leads, I make sure that every patient that comes in here is going to be offered patient financing, so I know they're that much more likely to convert and I'll be able to point back to those numbers. Whatever the outsized impact is. And really if somebody's like, well, how do I know what to do for outsized impact? Look at what are the top things that the company needs the most and how can I personally help achieve that goal or contribute to that goal? And that will define what you can control and what you can do to deliver outsized impact. And then the third thing would be making sure at a minimum you are sharing your impact with the right people who are the key decision makers at least every two weeks. And it be done in a really impactful, concise way where it is you are always reminding people of here's exactly what I am doing to help the organization achieve their goals and to help you as leaders achieve your goals. And here's what my team and I have done.

Andrea Watkins (30:30):
Yeah, I would ask, doing every couple of weeks, making sure you're telling the right people, what have you found to be the most effective as far as communicating that? Because it's hard to find time, FaceTime with someone. Is it a biweekly just this is my biweekly report. Put lots of little stars in the subject line and send it to your boss and just be like, every Friday by 5:00 PM know that this is coming to you and it's really important. I want you to see what we're doing, either as a team or me as an individual or something like that.

Blake Lucas (31:01):
On the opposite of that, and I think it's kind of interesting to think of it this way, maybe what are the two or three things that you should absolutely not do in this type of conversation when you're asking for a raise?

Kelcy Heringer (31:13):
I love this question too. That is a very great question. Okay, I'm going to answer both. So Andrea, great question around how do you share those wins? And I would say take a look at what I call the rhythm of the business. So look at is there a meeting already on the calendar that metrics are shared? Is there a slack channel where I could share this? Is the best place in a one-on-one? And it's going to be different at every level. So I would say, look at your current cadence and communication paths that you have and write down here's the one to two ways that I'm going to make sure I wiggle my way in there, or I'm going to talk to my boss about how I wiggle my way in to the right forums to deliver that information. So that was a great question and I could go down rabbit holes for forever around how to communicate your impact.

(32:01):
And then, really great question on here's what not to do. And I would say the thing not to do is to think that you are going to go ask and it's going to happen overnight. Or again, going back to just because you're doing your job that you are going to get promoted. So I would say making sure that you're setting the right expectations with yourself around I'm going to need to drive this, and if I want a promotion in six months, which is pretty aggressive to be like, I know that I want something in the next six months or the next three months or the next 12 months, that you are being really consistent and doing a walk back plan.

Andrea Watkins (32:41):
I would add on to that. One thing definitely not to do is think because it's your one year anniversary or your two year anniversary, that it's time for a raise. In small businesses, we don't have a cost of living increase like we do in my husband's business where he works for the government. That's just not how small businesses work. And so when you are showing your value, you could get a promotion in four months. You don't have to wait till a year and maybe you're there for three years and you never get a promotion because you're just kind of coming in and still doing your job, which is great. We need everybody to come in and do that as well. But don't just assume because it's a certain timeframe that it's like, oh, time for my bonus, time for a promotion. Because you really have to show up and prove that you're committed and that you're really looking for what's best for the business as you grow yourself as a professional as well.

Blake Lucas (33:32):
Some of the things that came to mind as far as what not to do for me, one is coming in and saying, well, this is kind of the going rate for this position that I'm in. I've researched this on LinkedIn and I found salaries that have been posted and I am making less than that, so I deserve to be paid what everyone else is being paid. Or knowing. If you know what colleagues are paid within the organization and coming, oh, well she makes more, he makes more than I do, I should be making more than them, I'm better than them. All those are the absolutely wrong place to start. Personal reasons too. Coming in and saying, to be able to afford the lifestyle I want, I need more money. Those are all personal goals.

Kelcy Heringer (34:10):
I'll just add a couple things. So one, it is a deal breaker for me the second somebody comes in and brings somebody else into the mix when you are talking about raises. So I think it is a good reminder, Blake, that you just said, don't ever do the comparison game. Keep it about you. And the second thing that Andrea actually sparked from what you had said, and then Blake that you piled on, was that it's actually a really cool opportunity to work in a small business because there is more agility to re-scope roles. So I also think it's really cool to think outside the box when you're thinking about what is the outsized impact, but also where do I want to take my career? When you're at a 10,000 person company, your lane is probably pretty clear and defined. But when you're at a smaller business and you see something that's like, Hey, I could really help out with that and that would be really cool for my career and I'd love to learn this new skillset, don't be afraid to ask. Go ask like, Hey, in addition to my current responsibilities, could I also shadow blah for the next six weeks and kind of learn that. Or I see this pocket of opportunity that nobody owns today. Can I test and learn for the next three months? Taking that on and doing some experiments to see if it drives the impact that I believe that it will. So I'd also say get creative and have some fun with it.

Andrea Watkins (35:35):
Also, I always want to people we work in aesthetics. This is fee for service, elective medicine, and this is fun and it's creative and people are choosing to show up at our door every single day. And so it's truly an honor when we're able to serve our patients and to create a culture and to create an environment where people are excited and they're happy to come have treatments, they're happy to come and go to work for the day. And so being creative, coming up with great ideas of how you can add value that will serve you so well no matter what happens in that practice or as you grow as an individual. We're not doing oncology here. This isn't the trauma ER. We're doing fee for service aesthetic medicine, and there's so many great opportunities for somebody who really cares about what they do. They care about their team, they care about their patients to say, Hey, you know what we could be doing blah. And somehow you can just wrap that right back into, how can I help this? How can I make this help me earn more money too? Is it bringing in value? Is it bringing in revenue? Are we getting more before and afters? Are we getting more reviews that are ultimately going to increase our reputation out there and show patients what we can do?

Kelcy Heringer (36:53):
That's the part that we're oftentimes afraid to, we worry it's selfish. But what you just brought up is when you can find an overlap of, Hey, this is going to help me get to the outcome that I want and it's going to help the practice, that's the ideal and holy grail intersect of, then you will get promoted because you are shoring up. Maybe it's a gap or a passion area or something that you know later on in your career is going to be so valuable and you take on that extra work and for the organization, it's where they need the most help. It's going to be a win-win. And so I think it's okay to accept that it might come across as selfish, but it's not because you're helping the business in the end and probably saving them a lot of money. However you do want to make sure you time box it, would be the only other thing I would say is like don't do free stuff for forever.

Blake Lucas (37:47):
And if the business doesn't recognize it or your boss doesn't recognize it after you've been able to do all of that, it's maybe a time for a change. And that's scary too.

Andrea Watkins (37:57):
100%. You have to value yourself and value the value you are bringing

Blake Lucas (38:03):
As you're researching this topic and thinking about management. And there are so many memes that are out there that I find hilarious. And I wanted to do kind of a segment here where we go through some of these scenarios and talk about some of these beams and maybe get some personal insight on how we might handle some of these situations. So in a situation where a mistake is made and it's one of your employees, do you take personal responsibility for the mistake or do you throw the employee under the bus starting off with a dramatic one little bit?

Andrea Watkins (38:36):
Well, if it's a process systems failure, I 100% take personal responsibility for it because that's my team. And perhaps they didn't have the tools, they didn't have the resources, the training, the empowerment to be able to have made a better decision and got a better outcome. So I mean, if it's someone's behavior and they just tell somebody to take a flying F off of a bridge because they're having a bad day, I will not take personal responsibility for that. But if it's a systems, a process type thing, 100% that's on me as a leader and it's up to me to say, Hey, these things are going to happen, but how do we prevent it from happening again? Mistakes to me. My dad taught me a lot of things in life. The one thing that I will never ever forget, I made a very, very, very large mistake when I was 15 and it was almost life altering. And he said, as long as you learn from it, it's not a mistake. And I take that into my life now that I'm in my mid forties. If you keep doing the same thing over and over, it's a mistake. But for my team, let's just take it on and figure out how to prevent it from happening in the future.

Kelcy Heringer (39:39):
I think the biggest thing here is these are, so it depends on the scenario, but never would I ever lead with I am finger pointing, right? I'm not ever going to have somebody on my team be the excuse. But I also think that there are moments where it's really good to be honest and for the person to take accountability and to be really clear with leadership that it was this person. But all the things that Andrea said, making sure that there's the correct context and understanding why and fostering this culture of it's okay to make mistakes, as long as we don't make them again. And so let's really talk root cause. There's all those things that are critically important. So it kind of depends, but for sure never jump to throw the employee under the bus.

Blake Lucas (40:24):
I think a lot of what we talked about today is about the craziness of a practice and just how insane it can get and quickly needing a drink within 10 minutes of starting your shift. So what does it look like for leaders to lead by example in challenging situations or stressful environments?

Kelcy Heringer (40:46):
I think one of the things that is a sign of a great versus good leader is maintaining composure and not being emotional and having a sense of calmness. And so making sure, I think also that you are finding balance in what emotions and energy you put out there are incredibly, incredibly important. But when something is really stressful for your team, the last thing that they need is for you to commiserate and lean in and say, yeah, and here, let me fuel this fire. They need you to be the calm in that moment.

Andrea Watkins (41:25):
I absolutely agree, and there's a lot of drama that can occur before nine, 10 in the morning in a practice. We all know this, we've lived it. And I think really great leaders take the emotion out of what's happening around them and they come at things with a logical, steady mind and you can listen and advise, but really taking the emotion out of it is going to help your team also feel safe.

Blake Lucas (41:54):
And the ride I'm on right now, I feel like it's almost like every three to six months there's some wave of drama that happens. There's some change or some bug or something new that's happening.

Andrea Watkins (42:07):
Three to six months, you get a pretty good break. That's incredible. What? That's scary.

Kelcy Heringer (42:13):
That sounds like heaven.

Blake Lucas (42:15):
We had to have a three month break, but we get hit with something and then it's like, oh my gosh, and then there's just this month or two of it just having to deal with that type of thing. But I think it's so true that you have to keep that composure in those moments because just like this, all things shall pass. You're going to get through that and there's going to be a great moment where that hopefully replaces that, but keeping that calm and that composure in front of all of your employees helps. I totally agree. It helps 'em feel safe. It makes 'em feel confident in what they're doing and then the moments where they have to step up, they're going to be able to do that. They see that in you and I truly believe that is leading by example. Not that we ever make mistakes, but how do you avoid and even prevent confusion in the workplace? I love this one too. It's hilarious.

Kelcy Heringer (43:05):
Oh, okay, I'm looking at it now.

Andrea Watkins (43:08):
I think very clear process and systems helps to prevent that more than anything else. Things that are written, clear training, regular continuing education, regular meetings so people know what expectations are. Yes, things are going to change, they are going to change, but helping to prevent and avoid confusion to answer that specific question is clear written process and systems for your team, clear job descriptions and expectations, position agreements for what it is that their role really entails so that they're not confused and they don't know if they're going to be an MA today or they're going to be sitting at the front desk or they're going to be running payroll. Yes, there's a lot of people that wear all those hats, but clarity in the role of yes, these are the things they're going to do is going to help prevent some of that confusion I think.

Kelcy Heringer (44:02):
I would say one thing that really resonated with me, Andrea, when you were just talking is I'm really passionate about what I call the rhythm of the business. And so you were just speaking to that and I am guessing that a lot of practices might not have this, but for the ones that don't, it is a green space to talk to your manager or for you to think about owning, which is really like what is our organization system and processes to make sure that we have moments to talk about what are the main things? And are we keeping the main things, the main things? How are we doing against the main things? When do we review metrics and talk about the places that are red and yellow? So it comes down to making sure that there are the right check-ins. Like if you don't have a one-on-one with your manager that is not good, you should go ask for that next week. And you should always, every week have an opportunity to make sure, hey, these are the five things I'm going to prioritize this week, is that right? Here's two things that I'm blocked on, can you help me? And making sure that you are not letting a bunch of those things happen. Like that meme right there, which is I'm not clear on what I'm supposed to be doing and what the right guardrails are to make sure that I'm staying in the right lanes and doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Blake Lucas (45:18):
Now we were kind of talking about managing up earlier and how difficult that can be. I love this next one, how do you get your boss to notice you're going above and beyond? And I think so many times we feel like this is our boss. They have absolutely no idea what's happening and they were just in a boat going down river, right? So Kelcy, you had brought up a handful of things earlier. Maybe we can just reiterate some of those things that we were talking about so we can write these down if we missed them before.

Kelcy Heringer (45:45):
Yeah, I would say thinking about even just my previous answer on create a rhythm of the business, that might be really overwhelming, but maybe you just think about how do I structure my one-on-ones and do I take the reins on my one-on-one time with my boss every week and sharing, here's what I'm working on here are wins from last week and here are my blockers, and oh by the way, here's my year to date or month to date impact, would be a really tactical easy place to start to make sure that you're always looping back at least to your boss, to tie back to here's the impact that my contributions are delivering. And I think oftentimes that gets clouded because we sit and list the activities that we are doing. And activities mean we're the busy person and that there's a lot of chaos going on and it oftentimes backfires on our ability to communicate the impact that we're driving.

Blake Lucas (46:47):
So Kelcy, on this podcast, we always end with a segment that we love, which is something we call, "She did what?" And it can be a crazy patient story or something like a staff member or employee did anything you want. Just one of those things where you had a reaction like she did, what do you have?

Kelcy Heringer (47:04):
Oh my gosh, I have 20 years of these and also what's appropriate for a podcast? Okay, the one that immediately when you asked that question that came to mind, my very first time scrubbing into a surgery, must have been 20 years ago, 19 years ago, the patient was getting a breast aug and this doctor was really well known, and so I was like, oh, wow, this is going to be incredible. And sat her up on the table and it was like two inches off, one boob up here, one down here. And I was like, oh my gosh, I should wake this patient up. So that's like a, oh my gosh, that's my first one, I think of it, this happened. But let me be more productive here with what we're talking about. I actually would say I actually just in the last few days got to speak with a COO that also was homegrown and went through the practice and I was asking questions that were very business related in nature and I was blown away and it was such a good reminder for me.

(48:00):
Every answer she gave me, even though I was trying to be transactional, she had such heart for the patient and everything was about the patient and every decision that they make is about the patient and the right outcome for the patient or having the right solution or vendors and services for the patient. And it is just such a reminder that the people running the practice are the heart and soul of the practice. And oftentimes this probably can feel thankless, but while it is such a fun environment to work in, and we talked about how it's such a great space to work in, the amount of confidence that this brings to people's lives and the enablement that the practice gives the people on the front lines on a daily basis is absolutely incredible. So it always makes me eye roll anytime somebody says this is a vain industry or, it is not, because I think one thing that we've all gotten to see is this truly can make such an impact on people's lives in so many ways, and it's the people who we're talking to today that really make the biggest impact.

Blake Lucas (49:11):
Oh my gosh, what a beautiful note to wrap this up with. I love that. Such a high note, such a positive note just to remind all of our listeners that are out there in practice land. Love it. Thank you Kelcy so much. Tell us really quick before we sign off, where can we follow you online or how can we connect with you?

Kelcy Heringer (49:27):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Super simple, follow me on Instagram, Kelcy_Heringer and would love to connect with you. I'm also not one of those people that's like, write me a comment and a bot will write you back. Not at all. I am still learning and new to social, so if you come on there, please say hi, send me a DM or drop me a comment. I'd love to hear about your challenges. So thank you all so much for having me and thank you PatientFi, I think this is again, just such a cool concept that it is something for the people who make the things happen.

Blake Lucas (50:03):
Got a wild customer service story or a sticky patient situation? Send us a message or voicemail if your tale makes it into our "She did what?" segment, we'll send a thank you gift you'll actually love. Promise no cheap swag here.

Andrea Watkins (50:15):
Are you one of us? Subscribe for new episode notifications and more at practicelandpodcast.com. New episodes drop weekly on YouTube and everywhere you can listen to podcasts.